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Bettabuilda
#61 Posted : 02 October 2018 21:10:40(UTC)
Bettabuilda

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Thanks for posting pics and your score Davy F. I was right behind you with 297/300  it was obviously a very close run thing! Lovely cars all round on the day I have to say and a credit to all for putting the effort in! Not just our section either, all over, including the show stands and car parks 

Barrie

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2007 NC1 1800GT 1st place lightly modified 2018 Spring Rally Goodwood

'91 Eunos, classic red, 2nd place in modified mk1 at 2015 Spring Rally Oulton Park.
mal jones
#62 Posted : 02 October 2018 22:29:49(UTC)
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[quote=Andrew5;752650]

Sadly I wasn't at the show yesterday to see all these wonderful cars on display and from what I see and hear it looks like I missed one of the best shows, well done to the club for putting on another great show.
 
I think the OP has a very valid point in his original post about his car with original seats competing against cars that have had a complete interior refurb, not sure if you mean a refurb to original spec or custom interior but having entered a few of these competitions in the past I wonder if there needs to be some clearer clarification on categories or are some of the cars being entered into the wrong categories as the competition rule book hasn't been read properly, the clubs judging manual has been very well written  and explains what determines categories easily and if we read page 8 of the current judging manual we have this,  I have highlighted some key words
 
Lightly modified class,  Interior – Seats must be of Standard Type. Must retain interior finishes, any carpet is allowed. Stock dash needs to be retained but modifications of stock gauges are allowed if mounted in same place. 
 
Modified class  Interior - Any seats, any dash modifications (gauges, etc.), any restraint devices, any roll bars or cages, accessories, etc., are allowed. Gutting of the interior is permitted. 
 
In the past I have seen and competed against cars in the NC (MK3) section lightly modified class that have had seats retrimed  to non standard finish, carbon fibre bonnets, surely then going by the rules that lightly modified class should have seats of standard type if you have retrimmed seats ( and I am presuming door trims etc ) carbon fibre panels these cars should be in the modified class?
 
And if we look at exterior we have this,.
 
Lightly modified class, Exterior - Mazda Body kits are allowed. Stock paint colour only, is allowed. Any tyres and wheels that fit under stock wheel openings (must not protrude past the wheel well by more than 12mm). 
 
Any exhaust system with road silencers, driving/fog lights, or suspension modifications are permitted. 
 
And for modified section we have this,
 
Modified class, Exterior - Any bolt-on or moulded-in body kits except kits that radically alter the lines of the vehicle, any wheels and tyres, any exhaust, lowering or raising chassis height, and any suspension modifications are permitted.
 
Again I have seen cars with lowered suspension in lightly modified class but going by the rule book if it's lowered should it actually be in the modified class? 
 
 
 
For me the competitions are fun to do as I have quite a distance to get to the show  and being a small part of the show and chatting to other exhibitors about their cars adds to the fun but It seems that after each show there is always some sort of annoyance about having cars judged fairly.
 
I know it says on the national rally homepage,
 
Standard Car Class - Factory standard car, Mazda genuine accessories only.
Light Modification - Some cosmetic and light modifications with aftermarket accessories (most members cars are in this category)
Modified - Numerous enthusiast modifications and also forced induction cars (*except where standard fit)
Ultra Modified - Radical vehicle alteration, e.g retro body kit or MX-5 kit build.
Daily Driver - Accessible category for cars in regular use. Age & mileage limits apply (bodywork & cabin judged only
 
The first time I entered a competition I thought this to be a bit vague about which type of modification determined which category and the completion rules do need to be read thoroughly to work out which category to enter, maybe some competitors are not reading the full rules. Maybe some basic criteria should be on this and entry forms to help entrants to determine which category to enter, for example it could be rewritten as, 
 
Standard Car Class - Factory standard car, Mazda genuine accessories only.
 
Light Modification - Some cosmetic and light modifications with aftermarket accessories, must retain original colour , seats must be of standard type
 
Modified - Numerous enthusiast modifications and also forced induction cars (*except where standard fit) any colour, non standard body panels, lowered suspension,  interior  retrim , engine power upgrades.
 
Ultra Modified - Radical vehicle alteration, e.g retro body kit or MX-5 kit build.
 
Daily Driver - Accessible category for cars in regular use. Age & mileage limits apply (bodywork & cabin judged only
 
As for my car, hasn't seen to many miles this year due to life getting in the way but it has seen its fair share of narrow country roads with grass growing up the middle, and even going to the rallies sat out on the top deck of a ferry overnight getting covered in sea spray,  it does get dirty,  I don't know Ian Cummins with Bluebird manages to keep his so good.
 
Thoughts, 
 

Andrew I do not know where you got this info. if you PM me your email I will send you the currant judging manual.

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Andrew5
#63 Posted : 03 October 2018 00:03:29(UTC)
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Mal PM sent,

i got the info as a PDF file on national rally competions entry page here,

http://www.nationalrally.co.uk/competitions.html

wolves mx5
#64 Posted : 03 October 2018 07:36:30(UTC)
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ope

Originally Posted by: Davy F Go to Quoted Post

Nice meeting you and Lisa too. Cool

 

Personally, I was there to enjoy myself, a prize was a bonus. I was happy to let others do the complimenting or complaining if that was their thing. 

 

PS....I’d like the BBR mod too, but I can’t justify it on my pension......Embarassed

 

 

 

 

Hopefully we will bump into each other again at another rally

I'd gladly swap the BBR for a decent pension and not having to work anymore .

What would I do with all that spare time though . I know I could clean the car

Mark & Lisa

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Davy F
#65 Posted : 03 October 2018 09:20:18(UTC)
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Retired @ 53, 5 years ago now. It’s been tough but you get through your days easily enough. I’ve just spent about 10 day’s on and off to refurb my garage. Then keeping the 5 clean as well as my daily driver and bikes.....you’ll slip into it quite easily. 

 

 

Back to topic, I feel sorry that the OP felt bad during his day at the rally. I’m sure the judge concerned didn’t consciously mean to do that, at least I hope that’s the case. But as the old saying goes.....don’t let the b******s grind you down ! 

Andrew5
#66 Posted : 03 October 2018 09:53:06(UTC)
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Wow nice garage, if I had a garege like that my wife would never see me. What's they yellow floor like to keep clean?

Davy F
#67 Posted : 03 October 2018 10:03:06(UTC)
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I’ll let you know in a year......but you can find whatever you drop dead easy. 

Sonue
#68 Posted : 04 October 2018 07:21:14(UTC)
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Here is my score sheet and judges comments for those that might be considering entering the competition in future.

I entered the MK1 Lightly modified class as advised.

 

I will start by recounting the words of the judges as they viewed the car before marking.

 

"The standard is so high now we have to be picky".

 

Judging Sheet - Interior.

Deduction of 1 mark for creases in the leather seats.

Disputed

 

Judging Sheet - Engine.

Deduction of 1 mark for radiator fan cowl dirty. This was prompted by the judge telling me my radiator head had gone greeny brown and was on the way out!. Forgive me but I thought a radiator was on the way out when it leaked!. The radiator has been overhauled/flushed and is in perfect working order.

I accept the radiator fan blades could be cleaner. But after 160 mile trip to the rally and insufficient prep time before the gates opened I could not do this.

Accepted (but I am concerned that the greeny/brown radiator head comment led to the judge advising me that they have to "find something to mark the radiator down for because of it".

 

Deduction 1 mark for fuel system linkage dirty.

The accelerator cable carrier is showing signs of oxidation. 

Accepted.

 

Deduction of 1 mark for paint finish. There is a small area of surface rust (?) under the brake servo.

Actually it is not rust it is a paint discoloration/dullness and a closer inspection would have indicated this.

Disputed.

 

Deduction of 1 mark for the alternator being dirty. 

Accepted.

 

Judging Sheet - Exterior.

 

Deduction of 1 mark for "paint(?)" -boot light scratch

Actually what the judge pointed out was a small and indistinguishable scratch in the rear nearside light cluster. The scratch was on the top of the black plastic housing. 

Disputed.

 

Deduction of 1 mark for rubber split windscreen.

There is a 1 mm nick in the rubber surround which occurred after replacement of the windscreen - the rubber is actually new and I supplied it when the windscreen was replaced.

Accepted - but v harsh.

 

Deduction of 1 mark for fuel filler dirty. 

I had not detailed the underside of the fuel filler flap.

Accepted.

 

 

I hope the above is helpful to new entrants.

As for my experience I will not be entering again.

My reasoning is simply that I will not be replacing the 25 year old leather seats, I will not be replacing the rear light cluster because it is perfectly acceptable not cracked or defective, I will not be replacing the windscreen surround unless of course I have to replace the windscreen.

Furthermore, I would need to thoroughly clean/replace or chrome the alternator. I accept I could take wire wool to it and clean it but I will not replace a perfectly working part. 

I am in two minds regarding the radiator. I know it is working as it should. I have had it overhauled and flushed. I will get it checked at the annual service but if it is sound I will not be replacing it. Consequently, if as the judge advised, they need to mark down for the radiator discoloration I can see no point in re-entering the competition.

I will not replace parts in perfect working order in order to win a trophy.

 

Overall my experience pre-judging has put me off repeating the experience. Unless the OC refine the classifications I fear there will be future disputes and upset.

 

Grant

 

 

 

Edited by user 04 October 2018 07:37:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Eunos Roadster S Limited.
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Bettabuilda on 04/10/2018(UTC), wolves mx5 on 04/10/2018(UTC), Nickand jane on 04/10/2018(UTC)
PeteG
#69 Posted : 04 October 2018 08:03:31(UTC)
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Never entered a competition and probably never will but on the subject of competition classes, there surely must be an argument for a 'barn find' type class? Even at prestigious events like the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance have classes for those classic cars that have been found in barns or under hedges etc and are presented as found, dust, undergrowth and all. Maybe that should be a category that the public could vote on rather than be judged. What about a 'Best in Show' category too? That could also be voted for by the public. Nice, simple and hopefully no-one gets offended or upset as it will be simple tally of votes and no score sheets.

Must admit, I was surprised by the harshness of the judging on Sonue's car. That seems more appropriate for a concours competition.

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Sonue on 04/10/2018(UTC)
saz9961
#70 Posted : 04 October 2018 08:06:29(UTC)
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Radiator tops progress from black to brown to green-brown, as the plastic is heat cycled. Eventually the plastic becomes brittle, and will fracture. In some cases, the fracture is dramatic and obvious, in most other cases, it only opens up when hot, and you will notice a loss of coolant, but no puddle. I've had two radiators fail over the years; on the last one, the fracture was a hairline crack that was only visible with the radiator removed.

There might not be an actual link between radiator discolouration and plastic brittleness, but its an observation I have seen made by countless MX5 and Miata owners during the 20 years of my ownership of Mk1s.

I'm now on a pattern radiator on the 96, and recently switched to waterless coolant. This provides all sorts of claimed thermochemical advantages, but for me, on a high miles car, the biggest advantage was the lack of pressurisation once you take water out of the system. If there is a hose failure, there is no longer the risk of a catastrophic loss of coolant (as steam). When on antifreeze, I had a heater hose split on me; the only indication was when stopped, I caught a slight puff of steam from around the headlight lid, nothing on the temperate gauge thanks to the dampening on the gauge.

I'm sure the judge thought he or she was being helpful, but it was at an inappropriate time, and without context (probably because the judge themselves failed to recognise why radiator discolouration is an indicator).

If it were my car, I'd be thinking the radiator is 25 years old, replacements, even from Mazda, are cheap. Just replace it, and consider it a service item. Most people are having to replace their radiator after a traumatic experience, one that might also damage the engine.

Edited by user 04 October 2018 08:07:11(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Sonue on 04/10/2018(UTC)
wolves mx5
#71 Posted : 04 October 2018 08:10:10(UTC)
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Grant,

I appreciate your frustration. Some of those marks do seem somewhat harsh. But don't let it get you down. Tackle anything you think needs doing and move on. Please don't give up on entering again.

I'd agree the OC should look at the classes and refine / take better control of which class cars are entered in.

As I said previously I looked at you car and was suitably impressed with it. Barrie was too. I'm damn sure there are lots of people who looked at your car and wished it was theirs. It would have been a lesser competition without you there.

Certainly hope mine is as good when she gets to that age.

Forget about the trophy and the competition its not really important is it?

Its about displaying a great car and meeting other owners who love and appreciate them as much as we do.

Mark




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20th Anniv(sold)

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Bettabuilda on 04/10/2018(UTC)
Sonue
#72 Posted : 04 October 2018 08:16:23(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: saz9961 Go to Quoted Post

Radiator tops progress from black to brown to green-brown, as the plastic is heat cycled. Eventually the plastic becomes brittle, and will fracture. In some cases, the fracture is dramatic and obvious, in most other cases, it only opens up when hot, and you will notice a loss of coolant, but no puddle. I've had two radiators fail over the years; on the last one, the fracture was a hairline crack that was only visible with the radiator removed.

There might not be an actual link between radiator discolouration and plastic brittleness, but its an observation I have seen made by countless MX5 and Miata owners during the 20 years of my ownership of Mk1s.

I'm now on a pattern radiator on the 96, and recently switched to waterless coolant. This provides all sorts of claimed thermochemical advantages, but for me, on a high miles car, the biggest advantage was the lack of pressurisation once you take water out of the system. If there is a hose failure, there is no longer the risk of a catastrophic loss of coolant (as steam). When on antifreeze, I had a heater hose split on me; the only indication was when stopped, I caught a slight puff of steam from around the headlight lid, nothing on the temperate gauge thanks to the dampening on the gauge.

I'm sure the judge thought he or she was being helpful, but it was at an inappropriate time, and without context (probably because the judge themselves failed to recognise why radiator discolouration is an indicator).

If it were my car, I'd be thinking the radiator is 25 years old, replacements, even from Mazda, are cheap. Just replace it, and consider it a service item. Most people are having to replace their radiator after a traumatic experience, one that might also damage the engine.

Thanks for this helpful post.

Your experiences and my thoughts over the last 2 days have led me to purchase a new radiator.

I agree it is better to forsee and remove the potential failure by replacing the radiator before catastrophy.

 

Really helpful advice.

 

Grant

 

Eunos Roadster S Limited.
Sonue
#73 Posted : 04 October 2018 08:22:07(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wolves mx5 Go to Quoted Post
Grant,

I appreciate your frustration. Some of those marks do seem somewhat harsh. But don't let it get you down. Tackle anything you think needs doing and move on. Please don't give up on entering again.

I'd agree the OC should look at the classes and refine / take better control of which class cars are entered in.

As I said previously I looked at you car and was suitably impressed with it. Barrie was too. I'm damn sure there are lots of people who looked at your car and wished it was theirs. It would have been a lesser competition without you there.

Certainly hope mine is as good when she gets to that age.

Forget about the trophy and the competition its not really important is it?

Its about displaying a great car and meeting other owners who love and appreciate them as much as we do.

Mark




 

I totally understand.

But equally I could display my car on the area stand (if in attendance) or the car park area.

I do accept all your comments. However, I cant envisage entering a competition without wanting to win.

Grant

 

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rhino666
#74 Posted : 04 October 2018 08:27:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: saz9961 Go to Quoted Post

Radiator tops progress from black to brown to green-brown, as the plastic is heat cycled. Eventually the plastic becomes brittle, and will fracture. In some cases, the fracture is dramatic and obvious, in most other cases, it only opens up when hot, and you will notice a loss of coolant, but no puddle. I've had two radiators fail over the years; on the last one, the fracture was a hairline crack that was only visible with the radiator removed.

True but the problem from my experience, for the vast majority of the radiators life the plastic tanks are at their terminal green-brown colour.

Hairline crack is more than enough to blow all the coolant out when the engine gets to temperature and the pressure increases. 

Edited by user 04 October 2018 08:28:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Sonue
#75 Posted : 04 October 2018 08:32:18(UTC)
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[/quote]

True but the problem from my experience, for the vast majority of the radiators life the plastic tanks are at their terminal green-brown colour.

 

[/quote]

Sorry I dont understand.

Can you please put it in simple terms for me.

 

G

 

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mazdared
#76 Posted : 04 October 2018 08:36:03(UTC)
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Ditto your comments, My girl did not win (D'oh)' and I did disagree with one judge's decision regarding the drop of 2 points !! however the enjoyment of taking part and meeting fellow competitors and nice comments from fellow MX owners made the day, I have been attending Nationals since 2002 they have all been enjoyable, however this one was top drawer, so I tip my hat to the organizers.

D&P

Originally Posted by: wolves mx5 Go to Quoted Post
Sorry to hear that you did not have a good experience. I was also a new entrant but as my 6 year old Kuro is pretty much as new so Its not surprising I didn't have any such issues with the judges.

Winning the lightly modded class was a bonus for me but in the end wasn't the important bit. That was actually meeting and chatting to other owners who were viewing and complimenting the cars. Not to mention the other competitors who were all a gr8 bunch.

I don't believe anyone who owned a competition car should be made to feel deflated. All of the ones I looked at were great examples of the various Mk's and deserve respect for the time and effort the owners have put into them to make them look as good as they did.

Judging must be a difficult process but if done in a sensitive manner need not make anyone feel that way.

Moving forward perhaps the judges can learn something from this... they should not be commenting on entrants cars before they start the judging process?

Cheers

Mark

Andrew5
#77 Posted : 04 October 2018 08:57:59(UTC)
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Can I suggest an idea for awarding prizes, and it's just an idea I seen at a local show once that the organisers might want to consider,
Since the winning scores seem to be very high at around 295-300 for first and second places a competitor who has put a lot of effort into their car and may have travelled a long distance to get to the show and scores lets say 294-300 which is still a fantastic score may leave the show feeling a bit deflated going home with no award and may not want to enter again the following year, why not award a trophy to all cars that score over 290-300 then present winners trophies to the top 1st & 2nd in each class, people may be more willing to try again the following year and may even encourage new entrants, could even get another sponsor onboard for the trophies.
 
Thoughts,

 

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mazdared on 13/10/2018(UTC)
saz9961
#78 Posted : 04 October 2018 09:11:10(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sonue Go to Quoted Post

 

Quote:

True but the problem from my experience, for the vast majority of the radiators life the plastic tanks are at their terminal green-brown colour.

 

 

Sorry I dont understand.

Can you please put it in simple terms for me.

 

G

 

 

I assume the poster is basing this observatrion from having professionally supported and maintained MX5s since 1990, and seeing changes in tank colour over the full 25 year cycle.

 

My replacement radiator "tank" (aka radiator top) is still black after ~10 years. But I have only had the experience of owning 5 MX5s since 1997 and only 240,000 miles driving MX5s, and seeing other members' cars at meetings. So my experience is limited.

RichardFX
#79 Posted : 04 October 2018 09:59:24(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andrew5 Go to Quoted Post

Can I suggest an idea for awarding prizes, and it's just an idea I seen at a local show once that the organisers might want to consider,
Since the winning scores seem to be very high at around 295-300 for first and second places a competitor who has put a lot of effort into their car and may have travelled a long distance to get to the show and scores lets say 294-300 which is still a fantastic score may leave the show feeling a bit deflated going home with no award and may not want to enter again the following year, why not award a trophy to all cars that score over 290-300 then present winners trophies to the top 1st & 2nd in each class, people may be more willing to try again the following year and may even encourage new entrants, could even get another sponsor onboard for the trophies.
 
Thoughts,

Perhaps think on something along the lines of how the RHS judge their entries.  They have awards for grades of quality, and then an overall best in show for that category. 

Fewer entries with the MX5s, so it does not have to be so complicated, but a rating against a standard is always welcome.

However, this is just a thought.

 

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alben on 04/10/2018(UTC)
harco
#80 Posted : 04 October 2018 12:25:21(UTC)
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This is so sad to see, but makes me glad I did not even bother to enter as the whole judging thing sounds a bit too up its own a*** to me

The entrants are enthusiasts not professionals and should not made to be deflated because there is a slight mark on paintwork.

I did suggest to the organisers a couple of years back that we should have a "peoples choice" award. Where the flyer that everyone gets on entry contains a tear off slip that the individual can deposit in a box (supplied by those who wish to enter) in the individual car they wish to vote for. The slips are added up and the winner announced. Simples...

The beauty is that this could also contain cars in the general parking area who wish to show off their beauty without the formality of the entry and apparent over scrutinising of the official competitions.

I will raise the point again when next I speak to Iain.   

Putting my carbon foot down !

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