Welcome Guest! To enable all features please login.

Notification

Icon
Error

NCharman
#1 Posted : 10 January 2019 13:23:20(UTC)
NCharman

Rank: Forum newbie

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 23/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 23

Thanks: 1 times

Has any else noticed that when the 'pips' go on radio 4 at the top of each hour, the DAB on their RF drops out (goes silent) for about 5 seconds, missing the headlines of the news? My car does not do that on FM radio, just DAB.

Anyone got a cure?


Life in the farts lane.
Jon stark
#2 Posted : 10 January 2019 14:04:01(UTC)
Jon stark

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,114

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)

this happens to my car on DAB on the hour    I must try on FM      Cant think why though?

Edited by user 10 January 2019 14:04:34(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Paul W
#3 Posted : 10 January 2019 14:21:27(UTC)
Paul W

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 02/04/2016(UTC)
Posts: 954
Man

Thanks: 9 times
Was thanked: 170 time(s) in 159 post(s)
It's possibly deliberate because DAB radio has a slight delay compared to FM. Perhaps it's to prevent the "pips" being late.
Mk2 1.8i, built Jan 1998.
NCharman
#4 Posted : 10 January 2019 15:39:02(UTC)
NCharman

Rank: Forum newbie

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 23/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 23

Thanks: 1 times
That's a thought, but I don't think it's the answer because a) a delay would make the problem worse, not better, and b) it's not a delay, it's a mute. The sound comes back on about half-way through the headlines: "pip-pip <silence...........>said Theresa May in Parliament. Now, sport-" etc.

Life in the farts lane.
Countryboy
#5 Posted : 10 January 2019 16:28:56(UTC)
Countryboy

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 29/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 5,273
Man
Location: In a bungalow near Upminster, Essex

Thanks: 1227 times
Was thanked: 458 time(s) in 407 post(s)

Incorrect information deleted replaced in post #7

 

 

Edited by user 10 January 2019 18:23:32(UTC)  | Reason: correction of text

COG group member

Soul Red 2015 ND 1.5l SE-L Nav. Bog standard! But still fun!!

Don't take my post as a personal attack, it's not! Just sound advice stupid!

Old enough to know better! Too old to change!!
Roadie
#6 Posted : 10 January 2019 17:17:56(UTC)
Roadie

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,895
Man
Location: Lincoln

Thanks: 295 times
Was thanked: 490 time(s) in 400 post(s)

Here's the most plausible answer I can find.

Radio 4 broadcasts on LW, FM, Satellite, Freeview and DAB. At certain times of day different programs will be broadcast on different mediums. Stick with me here. On DAB these changes are also accompanied by changes in bit rate of the digital signal. Where a program features one person speaking into a microphone it may well be broadcast in mono at a low bit rate. Switch to a drama with music and the bit rate rises and the transmission is in stereo. It may take the receiver a few seconds to adapt to and decode the new digital data stream.

Either that or the gap next to the pips is kept clear for Gladys Knight.

COG group member

Ex-Purveyor of ZSport badges to the gentry

Mk4 2.0 Sport Nav, Soul Red, Sand leather, Love it!
Mk3 2.0 ZSport, Beyoncé, Sold
Mk1 1.8 Merlot, Wino, Sold
Mk1 1.6 Eunos Classic Red, Roadie, Sold
Countryboy
#7 Posted : 10 January 2019 17:34:10(UTC)
Countryboy

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 29/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 5,273
Man
Location: In a bungalow near Upminster, Essex

Thanks: 1227 times
Was thanked: 458 time(s) in 407 post(s)

As above.  I've just been told that the "pips" are generated at the precise time, but being analogue they need to be digitally coded and decoded for DAB causing a delay, which no doubt explains why the news has already started when the signal switches back.  That wouldn't happen on the FM signal.  So the only "cure" that I can see is stick to FM, while you can.

Edited by user 10 January 2019 19:35:18(UTC)  | Reason: Added text

COG group member

Soul Red 2015 ND 1.5l SE-L Nav. Bog standard! But still fun!!

Don't take my post as a personal attack, it's not! Just sound advice stupid!

Old enough to know better! Too old to change!!
Combemartian
#8 Posted : 10 January 2019 20:02:44(UTC)
Combemartian

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 25/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 481
Man
Location: Berkshire

Thanks: 51 times
Was thanked: 71 time(s) in 65 post(s)
I'm sure I read some time ago that the time " pips " were going to be removed from digital broadcasts ( DAB satellite and online services ) because they would not be accurate. The whole idea of the pips is to synchronise timekeeping devices. With the delay of the various digital modes the pips are no longer accurate and therefore have no purpose, hence they are muted on digital platforms, this mute period may however run over a little.
I think that's what it said and it makes sense to me.
D
1998 mk2 racing bronze. Died RIP
2000 mk2 silver gone but not forgotten.
2011 mk3.5 metropolitan grey
1995 mk1 chaste white
Countryboy
#9 Posted : 10 January 2019 20:13:45(UTC)
Countryboy

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 29/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 5,273
Man
Location: In a bungalow near Upminster, Essex

Thanks: 1227 times
Was thanked: 458 time(s) in 407 post(s)

Originally Posted by: Combemartian Go to Quoted Post

I'm sure I read some time ago that the time " pips " were going to be removed from digital broadcasts ( DAB satellite and online services ) because they would not be accurate. The whole idea of the pips is to synchronise timekeeping devices. With the delay of the various digital modes the pips are no longer accurate and therefore have no purpose, hence they are muted on digital platforms, this mute period may however run over a little.
I think that's what it said and it makes sense to me.

D

  

That's what I was told too.  And it does make good sense.  My guess is that the "pips" will go when the plug is pulled on BBC FM broadcasts.

Edited by user 10 January 2019 21:24:05(UTC)  | Reason: Added text

COG group member

Soul Red 2015 ND 1.5l SE-L Nav. Bog standard! But still fun!!

Don't take my post as a personal attack, it's not! Just sound advice stupid!

Old enough to know better! Too old to change!!
martin
#10 Posted : 11 January 2019 09:19:23(UTC)
martin

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: Administrators, OCMember, Registered
Joined: 01/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 7,476
Location: Eastern Region

Thanks: 106 times
Was thanked: 367 time(s) in 276 post(s)

Originally Posted by: Countryboy Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Combemartian Go to Quoted Post

I'm sure I read some time ago that the time " pips " were going to be removed from digital broadcasts ( DAB satellite and online services ) because they would not be accurate. The whole idea of the pips is to synchronise timekeeping devices. With the delay of the various digital modes the pips are no longer accurate and therefore have no purpose, hence they are muted on digital platforms, this mute period may however run over a little.
I think that's what it said and it makes sense to me.

D

  

That's what I was told too.  And it does make good sense.  My guess is that the "pips" will go when the plug is pulled on BBC FM broadcasts.

no pips! wow, what about the bongs of Big Ben?

it is interesting though as you clearly notice the delay in DAB broadcast when it switched to FM as some radios do automatically when the signal is poor.  

But on a slightly related note having done a couple of bits on local radio in the morning (phoning in for a moan, you know the sort of thing) you can literally put the phone down to them and then listen to yourself as the "live" breakfast programme is in fact several minutes delayed, now how they manage that around news on the hour etc. I assume they must just time it all so it works. But they must also have their clocks set in the studio so they still give an accurate time check even though its not that time for them!   

 

Edited by user 11 January 2019 09:20:17(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

martin

MX5OC Chairman

GB IRL F B MC I CH FL D AND E NL L

g0aku
#11 Posted : 11 January 2019 10:21:25(UTC)
g0aku

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: Registered
Joined: 24/08/2013(UTC)
Posts: 108
Man

Was thanked: 21 time(s) in 21 post(s)

I have a similar problem here Radio 4 Tweet of the day on dab at 05 55 some bird song does not come through eg high pitch low pitch does, could be me but also certain records certainly Beatles from the 60,s only seem to play either music or speech. Dab is not cracked up to be the best I think.

Roadie
#12 Posted : 11 January 2019 10:50:36(UTC)
Roadie

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,895
Man
Location: Lincoln

Thanks: 295 times
Was thanked: 490 time(s) in 400 post(s)

DAB was initially good quality as there were only a few stations broadcasting at high bit rates. As more and more stations have gone on the platform quality drops to squeeze more in. Her's what Wikipedia says.

DAB audibly provides worse audio quality than FM in the UK because almost all stereo stations use a bit rate of 128 kbit/s or lower with the MP2 audio codec. Most commercial stations use 112 kbit/s. A bit rate of 256 kbit/s has been judged to provide a high quality stereo broadcast signal. Also, a large and growing number of music stations are only transmitting in mono. Indeed, the bit rates used by the radio stations on other digital platforms, such as cable, terrestrial and satellite are usually higher than on DAB, so the audio quality is also higher. On the other hand, an Ofcom survey, which was undertaken due to many consultation responses citing poor DAB quality, found that 94% of DAB listeners thought DAB was at least as good as FM.

COG group member

Ex-Purveyor of ZSport badges to the gentry

Mk4 2.0 Sport Nav, Soul Red, Sand leather, Love it!
Mk3 2.0 ZSport, Beyoncé, Sold
Mk1 1.8 Merlot, Wino, Sold
Mk1 1.6 Eunos Classic Red, Roadie, Sold
RichardFX
#13 Posted : 11 January 2019 14:45:31(UTC)
RichardFX

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 17/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,972
Location: West London

Thanks: 268 times
Was thanked: 380 time(s) in 349 post(s)

Originally Posted by: Roadie Go to Quoted Post

DAB was initially good quality as there were only a few stations broadcasting at high bit rates. As more and more stations have gone on the platform quality drops to squeeze more in. Her's what Wikipedia says.

DAB audibly provides worse audio quality than FM in the UK because almost all stereo stations use a bit rate of 128 kbit/s or lower with the MP2 audio codec. Most commercial stations use 112 kbit/s. A bit rate of 256 kbit/s has been judged to provide a high quality stereo broadcast signal. Also, a large and growing number of music stations are only transmitting in mono. Indeed, the bit rates used by the radio stations on other digital platforms, such as cable, terrestrial and satellite are usually higher than on DAB, so the audio quality is also higher. On the other hand, an Ofcom survey, which was undertaken due to many consultation responses citing poor DAB quality, found that 94% of DAB listeners thought DAB was at least as good as FM.

Never mind the quality, feel the width; keep the advertisers happy and hear the cash registers ring.

It is well known that most people have "cloth ears" and do not care in the least about hifi - witness the majority of TVs and "hifi" systems and soundbars currently being bought and fitted randomly into an acoustically poor echoing environment. So the skew of the self-selecting sample of 94% is probably representative of how many have the "CE" symptoms, but then even 6% of them were discerning!  The rest of the time most non-drivers will be listening to web stream or personal music etc.

Did they not ask non-DAB listeners why we don't listen to it?

DAB can be OK in the car where the shortcomings are much less obvious for several reasons, including heavily compressed signals, lo-fi and high ambient noise.  DAB was specifically designed for this environment, which is why it fails abysmally on Radio3 etc.  And none of us in the UK will be listening to it at over about 100mph when it often fails (car speed actually matters). The one advantage of DAB is that it works well right up to the moment it breaks totally, unlike FM where the quality drops off gradually and the noise rises to eventually swamp the signal. 

The commercial content providers are counting on there being more channels to enable them to "target" their audiences more closely with more advert slots.  This is the real reason behind DAB - financial pressure on the airwaves squeezing away the possibility of quality.

Do I sound bitter?  Yes I am, but there is nothing I can do about it, because the vested interests hold the balance of power.

 

2008 Niseko NC 2.0
2016 Mazda3 SE-L Nav 2.0
 1 user thanked RichardFX for this useful post.
Roadie on 16/01/2019(UTC)
Kuro1996
#14 Posted : 11 January 2019 20:09:12(UTC)
Kuro1996

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 18/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 270
Man
Location: Suffolk

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 12 post(s)
I'm no expert, but I don't think it is anything to do with the pips as mine does it on 5Live and 4Extra too and they don't broadcast the pips. I always thought it was "feature" <grin> of DAB broadcasting.
Formally 1996 Mk1 1.6 in Black with cream leather and woody interior - sold September 2015.

From 2015 Mk4 1.5 Sportnav in black with sand leather.

Based near Stowmarket - Suffolk / Norfolk border
Martin Young
#15 Posted : 16 January 2019 14:40:16(UTC)
Martin Young

Rank: Advanced poster

Groups: OCMember, Registered
Joined: 24/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 970

Thanks: 14 times
Was thanked: 43 time(s) in 39 post(s)

Has this only started recently?  I've never noticed it.  It definitely shouldn't be happening and if it's a regular thing that multiple listeners are experiencing then they ought to find what's wrong and fix it.  I listen to DAB at work and sometimes in the car, but haven't heard any dropouts on the hour.

Regarding the timing of the pips, encoding and decoding DAB does add a time delay (and an unpredictable one at that) but I thought they compensated by running network radio a couple of seconds fast so the pips will come through as close to time as practicable.  FM is almost instantaneous so I guess they delay transmitting that for the same couple of seconds to make it correct.

Edited by user 16 January 2019 14:45:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

'94 Roadster + MP62
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF 1.9.6.1 | YAF © 2003-2019, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.824 seconds.