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burtonm
#1 Posted : 14 November 2017 10:33:49(UTC)
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I would appreciate if this post could remained focused on the current problems with the ND gearbox and not become sidetracked onto other problems with the car or issues with other Mks .

How many problems are there within the gearbox?

Paul Roddison has proved that the standard box does not stand up to the rigours  of racing or even track days. Hopefully his modified box and ECU will enable the MD to become a successful track car.

Putting broken gearboxes due to racing on one side, more problems have been high lighted on The MX5 Owners Club forum, the ‘unusual noise from the manual transmission when driving in 2nd and/or 3rd gear’ is covered by a TSB dated October 10th 2016 (revised March 8th 2017) link to comments re the  gearbox, by someone with considerable experience of gearbox design.

A second problem came to light about a year ago,  2.0 ND Stiff Gears - Difficult in 1st & 2nd   and more recently ND firstgear problem

Mazda say that there have been very few gearbox failures with normal use, is this the case?

If you have had a problem, or know someone (member or non-member) who has, please add a comment on this post.

Lastly I was talking to one of the MAX5 series drivers at RoR Anglesey over the weekend, he started racing MX5 Mk1’s in 2004, his gearbox failed during a race in the summer, he was unable to get it replaced under warranty and had to buy a replacement, at a late summer race meeting he mentioned that he had written to Mazda UK stating his case, yesterday when I asked him he told me their reply was by their legal department, he then went on to tell the contents of the reply prevent him from discussing the matter further with me.

PS I am not going to reply or acknowledge each reply, please take my thanks added to each post as my acknowldgement and thanks for taking the trouble to reply

Edited by user 30 July 2018 22:21:09(UTC)  | Reason: 1st line made larger and underlined

Life is not a race to the end, but a leisurely journey enjoying the scenery
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Roadie on 14/11/2017(UTC), First rider off on 16/11/2017(UTC)
Roadie
#2 Posted : 14 November 2017 12:01:40(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: burtonm Go to Quoted Post

I would appreciate if this post could remained focused on the current problems with the ND gearbox and not become sidetracked onto other problems with the car or issues with other Mks .

How many problems are there within the gearbox?

If you have had a problem, or know someone (member or non-member) who has, please add a comment on this post.

Great thread Burton. I'll be following this with interest.

So we don't have to wade through pages of comments to get to the real information that I'm sure will be what we all want to see could I suggest that anyone without direct information simply adds a thank to Burton on the initial post and click the 'tag as favourite' button.

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IanH
#3 Posted : 14 November 2017 13:41:32(UTC)
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I'll monitor this and prune where necessary.

On the same topic I'd like to know if MK4/ND owners have thought about whether they would buy an extended warranty, either from Mazda or another party or rely on Mazda doing the 'right thing' outside of the warranty period. We're probably around 9 months from the expiry of the early MK4 warranties.

I'm on 17K miles trouble free with my 1.5 and hoping it stays trouble free.

 

Edited by user 14 November 2017 14:26:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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burtonm on 14/11/2017(UTC)
burtonm
#4 Posted : 14 November 2017 14:14:05(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: IanH Go to Quoted Post

I'll monitor this and prune where necessary.

 

That will be very useful and much appreciated, thank you

 

Life is not a race to the end, but a leisurely journey enjoying the scenery
PR-Yorkshire
#5 Posted : 14 November 2017 19:19:46(UTC)
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Burton

It would be useful if people could advise on the age of the car and the VIN number, whether it is a 1.5 or 2.0 litre, the mileage and the nature of problem. 

Based on Paul Roddison having failures around 2,000 miles and based on my knowledge of accelerated life gearbox testing I would expect to see road cars that have been driven reasonably hard experiencing problems around 20,000 to 30,000 miles, maybe earlier. No real science to this figure just my gut feeling as a former gear test engineer.  1.5 litre cars driven gently could last a lot longer and may not fail at all.

Aside from Paul Roddisons success in completing the 12 hour race with his own developed gears do we know how well anybody racing a latest version of the Mazda gearbox is doing and if there have been any failures. If so how long did the gearbox last?

2007 2.0l Mk3 Copper Red
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burtonm on 16/11/2017(UTC)
g40steve
#6 Posted : 14 November 2017 20:56:21(UTC)
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Version four of gearbox on what a two year old car.

No good buying an extended warranty when the original one seems questionable.

Mk3.5 Sportech Racing Beat mani, S/S center section, remap, race pads, MeisterRs, corner weighted, light & bal fly, DRLs.
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burtonm on 16/11/2017(UTC)
Gerryn
#7 Posted : 14 November 2017 21:08:59(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: burtonm Go to Quoted Post

 

Lastly I was talking to one of the MAX5 series drivers at RoR Anglesey over the weekend, he started racing MX5 Mk1’s in 2004, his gearbox failed during a race in the summer, he was unable to get it replaced under warranty and had to buy a replacement, at a late summer race meeting he mentioned that he had written to Mazda UK stating his case, yesterday when I asked him he told me their reply was by their legal department, he then went on to tell the contents of the reply prevent him from discussing the matter further with me.

Burton - (sorry) can you clarify this paragraph?

I get the impression that the owner was racing a Mk1, and the gearbox failed (not surprised) But did you mean he was racing an ND, and that gearbox failed? The latter part regarding  that letter from Mazda legal sounds like a threat?

Are we safe discussing these issues?

 

Five is Alive 2002 Mk2.5 Sport, with added Mazda body kit, 15 inch Rota Circuit 8 with Toyos, rescued wood rim steering wheel from a crashed Arizona. Air intake mods to come (one day!) Hard Dog Deuce rollbar. and HT (permanent fixture!) - It's still a sportscar.
burtonm
#8 Posted : 14 November 2017 21:19:54(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gerryn Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: burtonm Go to Quoted Post

 

Lastly I was talking to one of the MAX5 series drivers at RoR Anglesey over the weekend, he started racing MX5 Mk1’s in 2004, his gearbox failed during a race in the summer, he was unable to get it replaced under warranty and had to buy a replacement, at a late summer race meeting he mentioned that he had written to Mazda UK stating his case, yesterday when I asked him he told me their reply was by their legal department, he then went on to tell the contents of the reply prevent him from discussing the matter further with me.

Burton - (sorry) can you clarify this paragraph?

I get the impression that the owner was racing a Mk1, and the gearbox failed (not surprised) But did you mean he was racing an ND, and that gearbox failed? The latter part regarding  that letter from Mazda legal sounds like a threat?

Are we safe discussing these issues?

 

Sorry my oversight he has progressed to (much to his regret) to a Mk4

No further comment !!

But I can safely tell you that according to Mazda Uk on Facebook Today is #MX5 #TrackTuesdays the photo is of a  race prepared MK4 on track 

https://www.facebook.com/MazdaUK/?hc_ref=ARTo-kLUZWa_WiF-lhFl-1Farb8S2R_ypwYeyx6_l0iegLDj70HVlW6cjjMQ6uLyg-A&fref=nf 

I was tempted to add a comment under it ' Should the gearbox fail whilst it is on track Roddisons Motorsport will do you a good deal on the supply and fitting of a modified gearbox' as taking your MK4 seems to invalidate your Mazda warranty, but then thought better of it !!

 

Edited by user 14 November 2017 21:37:22(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Life is not a race to the end, but a leisurely journey enjoying the scenery
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Gerryn on 14/11/2017(UTC)
Roadie
#9 Posted : 14 November 2017 22:45:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: burtonm Go to Quoted Post

But I can safely tell you that according to Mazda Uk on Facebook Today is #MX5 #TrackTuesdays the photo is of a  race prepared MK4 on track 

https://www.facebook.com/MazdaUK/?hc_ref=ARTo-kLUZWa_WiF-lhFl-1Farb8S2R_ypwYeyx6_l0iegLDj70HVlW6cjjMQ6uLyg-A&fref=nf 

I was tempted to add a comment under it ' Should the gearbox fail whilst it is on track Roddisons Motorsport will do you a good deal on the supply and fitting of a modified gearbox' as taking your MK4 seems to invalidate your Mazda warranty, but then thought better of it !!

 

You may have been reticent in commenting but there is a comment on there from, guess who? Paul Roddison!

Love it, love it. love it. More than one way to skin a rabbit.

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burtonm on 16/11/2017(UTC)
dogman
#10 Posted : 15 November 2017 20:05:16(UTC)
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I would like to inform you that I drive the car gently and look after it very well.  I personally am very disappointed with my first gear problem and I have to wait and see how it all turns out. It has left a bad taste in my mouth and is already starting to turn against the car.  I never like to have to post this sort of stuff on forums and I like a car to do what it says on the tin. 

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burtonm on 16/11/2017(UTC)
burtonm
#11 Posted : 15 November 2017 20:45:37(UTC)
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I was told this afternoon that version 4, replacement gearbox was launched by Mazda on November 1st has anyone else heard this?
This information has come to me from 'across the pond'
Life is not a race to the end, but a leisurely journey enjoying the scenery
Gerryn
#12 Posted : 15 November 2017 21:30:40(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: burtonm Go to Quoted Post
I was told this afternoon that version 4, replacement gearbox was launched by Mazda on November 1st has anyone else heard this?
This information has come to me from 'across the pond'

There;'s a cryptic post up there from g40steve which appears to point to this, but like I said, no detail.

Quote)

Version four of gearbox on what a two year old car.

No good buying an extended warranty when the original one seems questionable.

 

Unquote)

At first, I thought it was a comment about Rodders car - maybe it was, but we'll never know. Problems getting into first gear (and some also into reverse from static were building up before this thread, we'll see if the owners repeat those complaints on here - which is the intention I assume - you can only hope to collate problems with one thread, not half a dozen.

 

Five is Alive 2002 Mk2.5 Sport, with added Mazda body kit, 15 inch Rota Circuit 8 with Toyos, rescued wood rim steering wheel from a crashed Arizona. Air intake mods to come (one day!) Hard Dog Deuce rollbar. and HT (permanent fixture!) - It's still a sportscar.
Roadie
#13 Posted : 15 November 2017 22:00:25(UTC)
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So after two years of waiting my ideal car has appeared on Autotrader. ND 2.0 Sport Nav in Soul Red with tan leather for under £15k.

If I buy I've got one year to seriously mistreat it to make sure the gearbox fails so I get a warranty replacement. If I can't strip the gears in that time then I'm on my own when it does finally go even though they have had to upgrade the design three times to make it reliable. We don't even know if they have got there yet.

Think I'll wait for another three years until the 2018 models come down to my price range IF the new box proves OK.

Who would have thought that a multi million global company could be shown up by a bloke in a shed in Sheffield.

 

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burtonm
#14 Posted : 16 November 2017 08:42:45(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Roadie Go to Quoted Post

So after two years of waiting my ideal car has appeared on Autotrader. ND 2.0 Sport Nav in Soul Red with tan leather for under £15k.

If I buy I've got one year to seriously mistreat it to make sure the gearbox fails so I get a warranty replacement. If I can't strip the gears in that time then I'm on my own when it does finally go even though they have had to upgrade the design three times to make it reliable. We don't even know if they have got there yet.

Think I'll wait for another three years until the 2018 models come down to my price range IF the new box proves OK.

Who would have thought that a multi million global company could be shown up by a bloke in a shed in Sheffield.

 

Once you have bought your ideal car at the right price, if the gearbox problem developes out of warranty get the car across to Roddo for the supply and fitting of a modified box, he has not finalised the price, I understand it will be in the region of £1000.00, (exchange)

 

 

 

 

Edited by user 16 November 2017 08:54:24(UTC)  | Reason: Original text re read and post amended

Life is not a race to the end, but a leisurely journey enjoying the scenery
Roadie
#15 Posted : 16 November 2017 09:24:10(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: burtonm Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Roadie Go to Quoted Post

So after two years of waiting my ideal car has appeared on Autotrader. ND 2.0 Sport Nav in Soul Red with tan leather for under £15k.

If I buy I've got one year to seriously mistreat it to make sure the gearbox fails so I get a warranty replacement. If I can't strip the gears in that time then I'm on my own when it does finally go even though they have had to upgrade the design three times to make it reliable. We don't even know if they have got there yet.

Think I'll wait for another three years until the 2018 models come down to my price range IF the new box proves OK.

Who would have thought that a multi million global company could be shown up by a bloke in a shed in Sheffield.

 

Once you have bought your ideal car at the right price, if the gearbox problem developes out of warranty get the car across to Roddo for the supply and fitting of a modified box, he has not finalised the price, I understand it will be in the region of £1000.00, (exchange)

 

Even when I was running a 17 year old NA Eunos as my daily driver I trusted it implicitly to be reliable and to handle predictably. I'm so disappointed with Mazda being on version 4 of the gearbox in two years. With that and the handling issues that Paul Roddison has also identified it puts serious doubts in my mind about the ND. Without these doubts I would be buying now. As things now stand I'm monitoring the issues and also prices.

Circa £1k for an exchange box sounds like a bargain. Even at this stage I would trust a Roddison box over a Mazda box. Having an affordable option if the worst happens will be reassuring. I don't mean to demean Paul by refering to him as 'a bloke in a shed in Sheffield'. His driving experience and technical abilities are amazing. I would also like to know if his modifications to cure the handling issues would be road legal and if so what would be the cost of that.

 

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burtonm on 16/11/2017(UTC)
prince4142
#16 Posted : 16 November 2017 11:53:24(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: burtonm Go to Quoted Post
I was told this afternoon that version 4, replacement gearbox was launched by Mazda on November 1st has anyone else heard this?
This information has come to me from 'across the pond'

Taken from U.S.A. MX5 forum. 

All Mazda ND MX-5 6 Speed MANUAL Transmission INTERNAL PARTS updates from original production.

Dates included are from Mazda's GEPC (what retail Mazda Parts Dealers use) and are Production Line
and Vehicle Assembly Line Dates, NOT Mazda's 'supplier' production dates.
99.99% of the time ONLY actual Mazda production line dates are referenced and included in GEPC.
00.01% is not used by Mazda Dealers as a cross reference or for 'supplier' made dates for OEM Parts.

ALWAYS Supply and use to your Mazda Dealer your Full 17 digit VIN Number, the JM1NDAD73G0100791
and maybe local registration/license Plate Number.

Please note: 
The Mazda OEM Part Number for the complete new Transmission Assembly has not changed, and never does.

Can use your 6MT 'SUPPLIER' Serial Number from Mazda TSB:
From small attached outer 'WHITE LABEL' stuck on the outer Bell Housing 
on all NDs after 6MT Trans Assembly manufacture, this code numbers translate to
suppliers assembly/made dates NOT Mazda VIN or Mazda use dates.
This date is used only for TSB reference guide for the Assembly Installed in your ND.
https://www.miata.net/garage/tsb/Unu...3rd%20Gear.pdf

Again: As a general rule Mazda Dealers ONLY use your full VIN Number as initial reference/referal points.
Dates below are actual Mazda Production Line Dates from Mazda GEPC and on/for TSB referral.
Listed are ONLY the parts inside 6MT which has been changed/modified from start of ND Production, 
all other parts including Gear Lever linkage and Clutch Kit has not changed.

Version 2: 

1ST GEAR (Only for 2.0 litre engine), M602-17-271, used from SEPTEMBER 5th, 2016 Production.

2ND - 3RD GEAR, M601-17-305A, from July 6th to Sept 6th, M601-17-305B, used from SEPTEMBER 6th 2016.

3RD GEAR, M601-17-230A, from July 6th to Sept 6th, M601-17-230B, used from SEPTEMBER 6th 2016.

GEAR REVERSE (Only for 2.0 litre), M602-17-281, used from SEPTEMBER 5th, 2016 Production.

GEAR REVERSE IDLE (Only for 2.0 litre), M602-17-310 , used from SEPTEMBER 5th, 2016 Production.

COUNTERSHAFT GEAR (A.K.A CLUSTER GEAR), M601-17-301C, used from August 1st, 2016 UP TOApril 3rd, 2017 Production.


Version 3: INSTALLED FROM April 3rd, 2017 VEHICLE PRODUCTION LINE.

SECOND GEAR, M601-17-251A, used from April 3rd, 2017 Production.

COUNTERSHAFT GEAR (A.K.A CLUSTER GEAR), M601-17-301D, used from April 3rd, 2017.


Version 4: INSTALLED FROM November 1st, 2017 VEHICLE PRODUCTION LINE.

CLUTCH HUB SET 1ST AND 2ND GEAR, M601-17-260A, used from November 1st, 2017.

SLEEVE CLUTCH HUB SET 1ST AND 2ND GEAR, M601-17-262A, used from November 1st 2017

 

 5 users thanked prince4142 for this useful post.
burtonm on 16/11/2017(UTC), Countryboy on 16/11/2017(UTC), Gerryn on 16/11/2017(UTC), PR-Yorkshire on 16/11/2017(UTC), Roadie on 16/11/2017(UTC)
rodders
#17 Posted : 16 November 2017 12:21:30(UTC)
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Roadie

Yes our stability mod IS road legal as it doesn't put and warning lights etc on the dash. basically we remove it and therefore make it like many ther cars that just don't have it....

buy the car still thinks its there

burtonm
#18 Posted : 16 November 2017 12:58:54(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: prince4142 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: burtonm Go to Quoted Post
I was told this afternoon that version 4, replacement gearbox was launched by Mazda on November 1st has anyone else heard this?
This information has come to me from 'across the pond'

Taken from U.S.A. MX5 forum. 

All Mazda ND MX-5 6 Speed MANUAL Transmission INTERNAL PARTS updates from original production.

Dates included are from Mazda's GEPC (what retail Mazda Parts Dealers use) and are Production Line
and Vehicle Assembly Line Dates, NOT Mazda's 'supplier' production dates.
99.99% of the time ONLY actual Mazda production line dates are referenced and included in GEPC.
00.01% is not used by Mazda Dealers as a cross reference or for 'supplier' made dates for OEM Parts.

ALWAYS Supply and use to your Mazda Dealer your Full 17 digit VIN Number, the JM1NDAD73G0100791
and maybe local registration/license Plate Number.

Please note: 
The Mazda OEM Part Number for the complete new Transmission Assembly has not changed, and never does.

Can use your 6MT 'SUPPLIER' Serial Number from Mazda TSB:
From small attached outer 'WHITE LABEL' stuck on the outer Bell Housing 
on all NDs after 6MT Trans Assembly manufacture, this code numbers translate to
suppliers assembly/made dates NOT Mazda VIN or Mazda use dates.
This date is used only for TSB reference guide for the Assembly Installed in your ND.
https://www.miata.net/garage/tsb/Unu...3rd%20Gear.pdf

Again: As a general rule Mazda Dealers ONLY use your full VIN Number as initial reference/referal points.
Dates below are actual Mazda Production Line Dates from Mazda GEPC and on/for TSB referral.
Listed are ONLY the parts inside 6MT which has been changed/modified from start of ND Production, 
all other parts including Gear Lever linkage and Clutch Kit has not changed.

Version 2: 

1ST GEAR (Only for 2.0 litre engine), M602-17-271, used from SEPTEMBER 5th, 2016 Production.

2ND - 3RD GEAR, M601-17-305A, from July 6th to Sept 6th, M601-17-305B, used from SEPTEMBER 6th 2016.

3RD GEAR, M601-17-230A, from July 6th to Sept 6th, M601-17-230B, used from SEPTEMBER 6th 2016.

GEAR REVERSE (Only for 2.0 litre), M602-17-281, used from SEPTEMBER 5th, 2016 Production.

GEAR REVERSE IDLE (Only for 2.0 litre), M602-17-310 , used from SEPTEMBER 5th, 2016 Production.

COUNTERSHAFT GEAR (A.K.A CLUSTER GEAR), M601-17-301C, used from August 1st, 2016 UP TOApril 3rd, 2017 Production.


Version 3: INSTALLED FROM April 3rd, 2017 VEHICLE PRODUCTION LINE.

SECOND GEAR, M601-17-251A, used from April 3rd, 2017 Production.

COUNTERSHAFT GEAR (A.K.A CLUSTER GEAR), M601-17-301D, used from April 3rd, 2017.


Version 4: INSTALLED FROM November 1st, 2017 VEHICLE PRODUCTION LINE.

CLUTCH HUB SET 1ST AND 2ND GEAR, M601-17-260A, used from November 1st, 2017.

SLEEVE CLUTCH HUB SET 1ST AND 2ND GEAR, M601-17-262A, used from November 1st 2017

 

I hope the above modifications will sort out the problems for run of the mill club members, however one or more of the boxes broken by Roddes whilst racing has M3 on the side of it, does this mean it is a version 3?

The details with Serial No's of the boxes which are currently lined up like tomb stones in a corner of his garage are as follows

Mazda    M602 06/28D

M3

5TJ06 04118

 

MAZDA  M601 09/04D

M1

5TJ09 00682

I am not sure of the serial number of the box which was thrashed around Anglesey etc.

The new box Rodders recently bought of Mazda is

MAZDA M602 09/26D

M3

6TJ09 90069

 

 

 

Life is not a race to the end, but a leisurely journey enjoying the scenery
John M
#19 Posted : 16 November 2017 14:59:34(UTC)
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For what it's worth:
My 1.5 gearbox is

M601 11/21D 
M1
6TJ11 03423

It must be a version 2, because the serial (and the VIN for that matter) is in the 'modified' range from the TSB and it was already registered before 3 April 2017 when version 3 came in. So I am not sure what the 'M1' signifies.

Note that one of the boxes you list above is an M3 with a serial starting 5TJ (i.e. 'unmodified') so it seems unlikely that the 'M' number is the version?

Feel free to delete if irrelevant or when you have captured anything useful.

Edited by user 16 November 2017 16:56:37(UTC)  | Reason: sp.

2017 Arctic #320
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burtonm on 16/11/2017(UTC)
First rider off
#20 Posted : 16 November 2017 16:11:12(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: IanH Go to Quoted Post

I'll monitor this and prune where necessary.

On the same topic I'd like to know if MK4/ND owners have thought about whether they would buy an extended warranty, either from Mazda or another party or rely on Mazda doing the 'right thing' outside of the warranty period. We're probably around 9 months from the expiry of the early MK4 warranties.

I'm on 17K miles trouble free with my 1.5 and hoping it stays trouble free.

 

I contacted Mazda UK about my concerns regarding the gearbox on my 2.0 ND and the fact there was a TSB issued (the original  USA version). I asked Mazda if they would warranty the gearbox for a period to be agreed for such faults as described after the standard warranty period has expired. Mazda UK pleaded ignorance regarding the TSB and stated that if I had any concerns it would be a good idea for me to take their extended warranty for peace of mind. I responded that I did not see why I should have to take out a warranty at my expense to cover what is obviously an inherent design fault. Mazda stated that they act on any such out of standard warranty period claims on an individual basis, but still advised me to take their extended warranty. I have kept copies of all my correspondence with Mazda UK.

My March 2016 registered (delivered January) ND 2.0 Sport Nav has now done 12,000 miles and is not yet showing any gearbox problem symptoms.

I don't think that you could expect Mazda to recall early ND's and fit new modified gearboxes but I do think they should provide free extended warranties for the unmodified gearboxes on early cars.

Edited by user 16 November 2017 16:53:59(UTC)  | Reason: Wrong registration year given for car

ND 2.0 Sport-Nav Blue Reflex with Sand Trim
Previous 2.0 Sport NC, Davrian Mk4, Four Triumph Spitfires & one MG Midget.
 2 users thanked First rider off for this useful post.
burtonm on 16/11/2017(UTC), Countryboy on 16/11/2017(UTC)
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