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Gerryn
#1 Posted : 07 October 2018 15:33:30(UTC)
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I find F1 this year (and past ones too) hard to fathom. First - we have team orders, often issued during a race - Bottas not allowed to win a race he clearly dominated, Raikkonnen also told to give way for Vettel. In the overall length of a season, does it really make sense?

Then we have the situation between Mercedes and Ferrari, where we thought we would have a season of neck and neck racing, No - instead, Ferrari seems to have lost the plot, where backup negates driving ability. Middle or upper management?

Ferrari also seem to be making a major mistake, unseating Raikkonen and replacing him with an untried, virtually unknown driver for next year  - who seems to fail more than Raikkonen in any race. At this moment, Raikkonen performs better than Vettel, and rarely makes driving errors, while team mate Vettel is still the same errant driver that he was with Red Bull, you just never know if he can finish a race or not. Teutonic arrogance - Who knows? Schuey was the same. That Schuey was at least more successful remains to be seen, both drivers bulldozed their way to victory. (I have long memories of the progress of both)

Seems that over the next two years, the governing body are bent on reducing the potential from Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull, over the rest of the field, on account of assets and general staffing ability over other teams.For the better? We will see. Digressing somewhat, you could say the same applies to Football, where wealth and talent go together. Then there's Athletics, where some countries perform better than others, take the Olympics as a prime example

Last - but not least, we have the fall from grace (and performance) of both Williams and Maclaren, former leaders and winners of past titles. Why?

Lotus and BRM came and went, as did other teams. Lack of funds in some cases, lack of interest too methinks. All just personal opinions, but a disappointment from past years. Looks like Hammy will win another title, as Ferrari stand now. Better driver? - I think so. Better car? debatable. Reverse drivers and cars, and Hammy would still win. Though Raikkonen would give him a hard time in a Merc. Verstappen is the guy to watch. - Maybe he should have replaced Vettel at Ferrari? Topsy turvy world innit?

Five is Alive 2002 Mk2.5 Sport, with added Mazda body kit, 15 inch Rota Circuit 8 with Toyos, rescued wood rim steering wheel from a crashed Arizona. Air intake mods to come (one day!) Hard Dog Deuce rollbar. and HT (permanent fixture!) - It's still a sportscar.
oyster town
#2 Posted : 07 October 2018 15:51:10(UTC)
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As long as Suzie Wolf is on the commentary team!
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Gerryn on 07/10/2018(UTC), stephenraw on 07/10/2018(UTC)
Gerryn
#3 Posted : 07 October 2018 17:00:06(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: oyster town Go to Quoted Post
As long as Suzie Wolf is on the commentary team!

 

Can't argue against that one, though missed her these last few events.

Karun Chandhok seems to have the best ear to the ground as far as what goes on between crews and what happens in the pits, more so than any previous commentators. - A valuable asset.

Five is Alive 2002 Mk2.5 Sport, with added Mazda body kit, 15 inch Rota Circuit 8 with Toyos, rescued wood rim steering wheel from a crashed Arizona. Air intake mods to come (one day!) Hard Dog Deuce rollbar. and HT (permanent fixture!) - It's still a sportscar.
Andy0306
#4 Posted : 07 October 2018 17:57:39(UTC)
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Who cares, next year those of us who don't have/want or can't afford Sky lose out anyway. We'll get one live race and the rest will be highlights. You could hide away for the day so you don't hear the result, which given the amount of media around us unlikely to happen (I always end up finding out when highlights are on). Sadly for me, the greed of F1 has ruined the only sport I watch/follow.

 

Maybe time for me to start following the BTCC.

Countryboy
#5 Posted : 07 October 2018 19:01:27(UTC)
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I think the word "Team" is the key element here.  Mercedes want to win both the constructors title and for one of their drivers become world champion.  So although the drivers may be stars in their own right they are just team members.  At this stage of the competition Mercedes have one driver with a good chance to win the WC title and the other with no real hope so it makes sense from the team's point of view to get as many points as possible for their WC contender; letting their other driver get a few additional points here and there at his expense could lead to another team's driver taking the title.  If the positions were reversed I'm sure that Bottas would be favoured over Hamilton.  It's my bet that if Hamilton sews up the championship with a few races left Bottas will be allowed to race.

PS: I have to add that I think Bottas has acted like a true gentleman, not a "prima donna" as some would have.

Edited by user 07 October 2018 19:08:16(UTC)  | Reason: Added text

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Don't take my post as a personal attack, it's not! Just sound advice stupid!

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Gerryn
#6 Posted : 07 October 2018 19:23:04(UTC)
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No argument with you Andy - my sentiments exactly. I watch F1 on channel 4, highlights only. Today as some other days, I heard the result from the Beeb, which is aggravating. Perhaps if they didn't use license payers money to pay their staff so much money, they could successfully bid for cover as they used to do. But, as you say, the greed of F1 former and current owners rules who get's the real event and who gets the left overs.

General state of the present world I'm afraid, some can afford good steak, and the rest of us eat mince meat, or chicken raised in Thailand. - - - - WTF. Only thing that keeps me going is the National Service motto - "Nil Illigitum Carborundum." (There are other versions.)

In some obscure ways, pleased I am now 85 - - - - - - the future is on the horizon.
Five is Alive 2002 Mk2.5 Sport, with added Mazda body kit, 15 inch Rota Circuit 8 with Toyos, rescued wood rim steering wheel from a crashed Arizona. Air intake mods to come (one day!) Hard Dog Deuce rollbar. and HT (permanent fixture!) - It's still a sportscar.
Andy0306
#7 Posted : 07 October 2018 19:48:59(UTC)
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Just noticed where you're located Gerryn. I used to work at Sheetfabs, just down the road from Toton. :)

Speedy aka Ian
#8 Posted : 07 October 2018 21:40:58(UTC)
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Did chuckle today when DC said if you had a video tape of all the mistakes that Vettel had made this year it would be a long video, where with Lewis it would be over in a blink.

Sums it up very nicely I thought.

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Gerryn
#9 Posted : 07 October 2018 22:36:34(UTC)
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Ian - I missed that, but laughed when DC also commented "Vettel just made a move proving his race skills, which he didn't show for the first half of the race". (not word for word, but as I remember it.)

Andy - co-incidence, a former friend of mine used to buy cabinets and enclosures from Sheetfabs, when he was really busy. You may have worked on them.
Five is Alive 2002 Mk2.5 Sport, with added Mazda body kit, 15 inch Rota Circuit 8 with Toyos, rescued wood rim steering wheel from a crashed Arizona. Air intake mods to come (one day!) Hard Dog Deuce rollbar. and HT (permanent fixture!) - It's still a sportscar.
John M
#10 Posted : 08 October 2018 10:21:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Countryboy Go to Quoted Post

I think the word "Team" is the key element here.  Mercedes want to win both the constructors title and for one of their drivers become world champion.  So although the drivers may be stars in their own right they are just team members.  At this stage of the competition Mercedes have one driver with a good chance to win the WC title and the other with no real hope so it makes sense from the team's point of view to get as many points as possible for their WC contender; letting their other driver get a few additional points here and there at his expense could lead to another team's driver taking the title.  If the positions were reversed I'm sure that Bottas would be favoured over Hamilton.  It's my bet that if Hamilton sews up the championship with a few races left Bottas will be allowed to race.

PS: I have to add that I think Bottas has acted like a true gentleman, not a "prima donna" as some would have.

It's hard to disagree that Mercedes should have done this when their rivals do it anyway - if they didn't, then their driver could potentially have lost out (it's just about over now) to another driver who hadn't won the World Drivers Championship on his own merits either.  But it does mean that the WDC is misnamed if it is achieved by teams teeming and lading with drivers' points.

I read that Hamilton offered to repay the points but Bottas doesn't want them.  Actually it would be better if Hamilton did, as he would then win with the points he has earned.

If it happened in just about any other sport then it would be kept secret and called match fixing;  people who had bet on on Vettel to win the WDC would consider themselves to have been defrauded if Lewis won by a margin smaller than the donated points.

I can't see it changing.  It happened even when it was against the rules (e.g. Schumacher and Barrichello, Hakinnen and Coulthard). 

Before that, even the great Fangio took over his team-mates' cars on more than one occasion when his own car broke down.  But in those days the two drivers would share the points.

The saddest thing this year has been the struggles of Williams, and to some extent McLaren (who misled themselves about the capability of their car and shot themselves in the foot by ditching Honda).

 

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Sonue
#11 Posted : 08 October 2018 11:31:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: John M Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Countryboy Go to Quoted Post

I think the word "Team" is the key element here.  Mercedes want to win both the constructors title and for one of their drivers become world champion.  So although the drivers may be stars in their own right they are just team members.  At this stage of the competition Mercedes have one driver with a good chance to win the WC title and the other with no real hope so it makes sense from the team's point of view to get as many points as possible for their WC contender; letting their other driver get a few additional points here and there at his expense could lead to another team's driver taking the title.  If the positions were reversed I'm sure that Bottas would be favoured over Hamilton.  It's my bet that if Hamilton sews up the championship with a few races left Bottas will be allowed to race.

PS: I have to add that I think Bottas has acted like a true gentleman, not a "prima donna" as some would have.

It's hard to disagree that Mercedes should have done this when their rivals do it anyway - if they didn't, then their driver could potentially have lost out (it's just about over now) to another driver who hadn't won the World Drivers Championship on his own merits either.  But it does mean that the WDC is misnamed if it is achieved by teams teeming and lading with drivers' points.

I read that Hamilton offered to repay the points but Bottas doesn't want them.  Actually it would be better if Hamilton did, as he would then win with the points he has earned.

If it happened in just about any other sport then it would be kept secret and called match fixing;  people who had bet on on Vettel to win the WDC would consider themselves to have been defrauded if Lewis won by a margin smaller than the donated points.

I can't see it changing.  It happened even when it was against the rules (e.g. Schumacher and Barrichello, Hakinnen and Coulthard). 

Before that, even the great Fangio took over his team-mates' cars on more than one occasion when his own car broke down.  But in those days the two drivers would share the points.

The saddest thing this year has been the struggles of Williams, and to some extent McLaren (who misled themselves about the capability of their car and shot themselves in the foot by ditching Honda).

 

Wot about a new points system..................points are awarded on the finishing position of both drivers/cars for the constructors championship (i.e. 1st and 2nd equals 25 points, 1st and 3rd equals 20 points, a 1st with the second driver out equals 5 points.

Drivers failing to finish would harm the team score as the finishing driver would only be able to collect his share of the constructors points.

 

Separate points tally for the drivers championship. 

 

Just musing........

 

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Countryboy
#12 Posted : 08 October 2018 12:25:47(UTC)
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^^^^Your constructors points system might work for retirement through "mechanical/structural failure" but surely not through "driver incidents/crashes".  Just asking.

PS: Don't they only get points for the cars that finish now anyway?

Edited by user 08 October 2018 12:48:06(UTC)  | Reason: Added text

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Don't take my post as a personal attack, it's not! Just sound advice stupid!

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Davyo
#13 Posted : 08 October 2018 12:41:24(UTC)
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Its boring, and thats from someone who used to go to every British GP,its NOW full of crybabies.God the shadows of the cars have only got to touch  & there is a steward enquiry.Be more exciting if they where playing TopTrumps. Started to save my money and go to 2 or 3 events including BTC and still end up with money in my pocket.

Edited by user 08 October 2018 13:12:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Scottishfiver
#14 Posted : 08 October 2018 13:55:52(UTC)
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For me, technology has spoiled the sport not made it more watchable.

I do appreciate some of the technology eventually finds it's way into production cars, but again, the amount of so called safety & efficiencies over the last 20 years is turning drivers into "steering wheel operators", and soon enough we won't have to bother with that either.

I'd love to see the technologies wound back to screaming turbo'd 2.5/3ltr V's, delete the stupid DRS......which was only dialled into the formula to encourage overtaking, or even enable it if a lesser team....only to be overtaken next lap...

Chassis etc? Well, pure aerodynamics and laws of mechanical grip would see all the teams doing pretty much the same thing as now...within F1 construction rules.

I'd prefer two or three tyre manufacturers involved

Just look at the 70's & 80's..

There was much departure from team to team within rules. The cars looked very different, and yet most competed well..some better than others of course. 

I'd stick with paddle changes, and I'd cap the money allowed to be spent on the final specs. Let's face it, Petronas/Fiat money is without apparent restraint and it's win win at any cost.

In basic terms, the difference in performances of the regular top 10 grid teams is down to fractions of seconds, yet the budget of those who top the bill 95% of the time to pole is an eye watering amount of money over an above the budgets of the middle rankers. In short, countless millions both pre-season &  in-season development over them ends up in tenths of seconds. 

All in all, it's all become too complex technically, legally, and financially. 

 

Edited by user 08 October 2018 14:03:28(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Sonue
#15 Posted : 08 October 2018 14:14:04(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Countryboy Go to Quoted Post

^^^^Your constructors points system might work for retirement through "mechanical/structural failure" but surely not through "driver incidents/crashes".  Just asking.

PS: Don't they only get points for the cars that finish now anyway?

Just musing.

I was thinking of a way that both drivers/cars are equally incentivised by the constructor team.

Teams incentivise by bonus for both cars finishing as high up the order as possible......the main words here are  both cars.

 

Let drivers race each other.

 

Pay on results and not failures.

 

Reverse the grid like BRCC.

Prob wouldnt work anyway. 

 

Like Gerryn I have become bored watching FI.

 

Bring back Mansell....lunatic but brave overtaking.....

 

Verstappen has the will to go for it but not the skill to keep it clean.

 

my fave driver is Ricciardo. Now he can put on a show of bold overtaking. 

 

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Countryboy on 08/10/2018(UTC)
Countryboy
#16 Posted : 08 October 2018 14:48:16(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sonue Go to Quoted Post

Reverse the grid like BRCC.

Prob wouldnt work anyway. 

Verstappen has the will to go for it but not the skill to keep it clean,

  

Not with Max at the back, he'd wipe out the field (except any behind him) before they'd travelled 10 metres!

 

Edited by user 08 October 2018 15:15:46(UTC)  | Reason: added smiley

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Gerryn
#17 Posted : 08 October 2018 16:49:38(UTC)
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I'll try to answer some of the above posts, in no particular order, more in relevance to what's been said so far.
First comment is of some concern (by me) as the order of posts above is not the same as they were last night. For example, only post visible last night was a post by Andy, regarding my location. I replied to that, but today, a post by Countryboy replaced a previous comment by me to Andy, and Andy's comment about my location is now after my answer to that. Weird? It makes nonsense where replies precede a comment. If this forum was bad enough previously, now it's developed a new quirk. You've been warned. I hate quoting as it takes up space, and I try to avoid it as much as possible. However, If I'd quoted a previous post on each of my replies, you'd see what I'm talking about. I logged off about 1 am this morning. (night owl!)

So replies: Roger, points are awarded for the first ten places only, obviously on a lesser basis, I'm not familiar with the present points system, but from memory, I think the tenth car over the line at finish gets 1 point. - In race order of course. 11th car gets nothing.

Sonue, your points system is more suitable for team points, rather than finishers ability, except I think they aren't acceptable to anyone. Nice try though.

John M - (Long reply) I first learned to drive in Canada, 1958 (memory fades these days), having emigrated with my first wife in 1957. F1 was not covered in those days, so didn't really become involved till I returned in 1966 - or 67. I was in the UK in 1964, having returned at her request so I could divorce her, cheaper and faster than if done in Canada. I then bought an MGB, and at that time thought I was a part of the sporting world, and took an interest in grass roots racing. No - I didn't join in, just took an interest. That's when I first became aware that the MG car club had it's own dedicated race series, and from that dream always wanted to see any club I might join as being also able to do that. In that I failed, as this Club has never wanted to get involved itself, and took it's time over encouraging support for the early MX5 car racing series. For a short period, we did become an RAC Motorsport Associate, which encouraged me to some degree, but that never really got anywhere, and the Club ceased membership a couple of years later. (Objections were raised to convoy rules as an example.) However, that's later in my story. While in Canada, other events were publicized, Indy 500 for one of several, with Drag racing catching my attention, but those events were stateside mostly, with few events in Canada. The land of the big6 and many V8's to choose from. You'd be blind to miss it! We did get American TV from Buffalo though, so events were always on tap. So F1 did not really get my attention till the late sixties, and I've followed it actively since. Fangio raced pre-war IIRC, and we'd both be old as the hills to remember that, but motor racing history is widely available to anyone interested. From that we learned that GP racing took it's toll, right through till Bernie took over F1, mainly for his own ends, but also brought GP racing onto our TV screens, which did us petrol heads a favour.
However, I tend to agree with your comments generally, all good points.

Scottish Fiver _ I hear you loud and clear, also agree, it is far too technical and complicated now. Also irrelevant to what goes on production cars, it's gone beyond that stage. Both RGB and DRS are nothing to do with street legal cars. Nor are barge boards, or other race add-ons that would be useless on a street car.
Promotion greed has all but driven the series from our (normal) TV screens, now we can watch highlights from hours ago, but never in real time.

Last comment - Davyo - You sound like a blood and guts follower, surprised you don't follow Hot rod and Banger car racing, where all the action is. Other than Vettel and Raikonnen sandwiching Verstappen this past year, such incidents are hard to accept (I suspect Vettel more than Raikonnen for that event) F1 is relatively clean, with the exception of one particular driver, who as I commented, has history for such behaviour. Verstappen started the same way, but apparently has cleaned up his act mid season. The drive to win is understandable, but not when it threatens another drivers life. GP racing used to be a gentlemans event, but the threat was there, ever present till modern F1 came about. Didn't stop Schuey T boning opposition, nor Vettel, who followed suit. Don' recall others who were a threat to life, and let's face it, driving at up to 200+ mph is life threatening in itself. Stewards are there mainly to protect drivers from each other, though one recent even didn't get the punishment it deserved - no comment.

Added - personal thought: Yes I did watch some MX5 race events, but unlike other Mx5 followers, I don't like close order racing, too many things can happen, and did. Could be, that's why I prefer F1, where there''s sometimes miles (or seconds) between leaders and followers, Close order racing is still there, at the back of the pack, but it's noticeable how better drivers and faster cars get through the pack with ease mainly, which is the real draw of GP racing,
Five is Alive 2002 Mk2.5 Sport, with added Mazda body kit, 15 inch Rota Circuit 8 with Toyos, rescued wood rim steering wheel from a crashed Arizona. Air intake mods to come (one day!) Hard Dog Deuce rollbar. and HT (permanent fixture!) - It's still a sportscar.
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Scottishfiver on 08/10/2018(UTC)
John Aston
#18 Posted : 08 October 2018 17:09:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andy0306 Go to Quoted Post

 

 

Maybe time for me to start following the BTCC.

 

BTCC has its moments but it  can be rather too much of a crash bang wallop pantomime,and some of its fans are a bit feral too  . I watch a lot of live motor sport, most weekends between Easter and October in fact , and the purest , closest racing I see is HSCC Historic Formula Ford 1600. Huge grids , drivers from 18 to 70 plus and brilliantly close racing . HSCC saloons etc also great , and CSCC also offer a splendidly eclectic mixture - featuring everything from the odd MX5 to Cobras, Mustangs , Cortinas and Sevens , as well as more modern turbo hatches and some lovely older 911s . Slightly biased, as I've been  writing  race reports for them this season , but a great day out for anybody who loves racing  .  

 

Speed hillclimbing are another joy,and if anybody has never seen a slicks and wings 600bhp single seater pull 140mph up a narrow tarmac track you have a treat in store .  We have a brilliantly diverse motorsport scene in UK,and thankfully most of the good stuff isn't on TV. Watching motor racing on TV - and I do it myself -  is essentially just watching telly.. 

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#19 Posted : 08 October 2018 17:34:09(UTC)
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Personally I think that if Hamilton gets an unassailable lead in the championship, from then on he should let Bottas past him (if Bottas is just behind him)  and let Bottas maximise his points and maybe win a few races.

I do rate Vettel but he is becoming a bit impetuous and i was looking forward to a tight title race between them. Hamilton is showing a much more mature approach.

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#20 Posted : 08 October 2018 19:09:46(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gerryn Go to Quoted Post
Andy - co-incidence, a former friend of mine used to buy cabinets and enclosures from Sheetfabs, when he was really busy. You may have worked on them.

It was about 25 years ago that I worked there, no idea if I did 

 

John Aston wrote:

BTCC has its moments but it  can be rather too much of a crash bang wallop pantomime,and some of its fans are a bit feral too  . I watch a lot of live motor sport, most weekends between Easter and October in fact , and the purest , closest racing I see is HSCC Historic Formula Ford 1600. Huge grids , drivers from 18 to 70 plus and brilliantly close racing . HSCC saloons etc also great , and CSCC also offer a splendidly eclectic mixture - featuring everything from the odd MX5 to Cobras, Mustangs , Cortinas and Sevens , as well as more modern turbo hatches and some lovely older 911s . Slightly biased, as I've been  writing  race reports for them this season , but a great day out for anybody who loves racing  .  

 

Speed hillclimbing are another joy,and if anybody has never seen a slicks and wings 600bhp single seater pull 140mph up a narrow tarmac track you have a treat in store .  We have a brilliantly diverse motorsport scene in UK,and thankfully most of the good stuff isn't on TV. Watching motor racing on TV - and I do it myself -  is essentially just watching telly.. 

I did a marshalling day at Silverstone a couple of years ago. It was the Walter Hayes Trophy event and was an awesome lineup of cars and great fun to watch close up. 

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