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Profile: saz9961
Name: saz9961
Joined: 24 July 2008(UTC)
Last Visit: 19 March 2019 06:45:34(UTC)
Number of Posts: 10,066
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Topic: Mk3 Rusty Sills   Go to last post
Posted: 19 March 2019 00:23:05(UTC)
From what I can gather, repairers are having to fabricate patches for the Mk3, but are saying its not too hard, as no curves are involved.
Topic: The Fiat 124 is dead   Go to last post
Posted: 18 March 2019 19:02:40(UTC)

Originally Posted by: Countryboy Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: saz9961 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Countryboy Go to Quoted Post

Unfortunately it's "retro" looks had more in common with Dodge Detroit 1956 than Fiat Turin 1966.

 

Well it was styled by an Austrian schooled by Pininfarina, so you cannot blame America. And the original 124 was styled by an American, from Detroit. So the original 124 was a Detroit design, and the latter pastiche was an Italian copy.

  

I'm referring about the actual "look" of vehicles produced - 1956 Dodge p/u ex Detroit vs 1966 Fiat 124 Spider ex Turin - not the CV's of the designers.  Sorry to confuse you.

 

Yeah, it doesn't look much like a 1940s Leyland lorry either.

 

Why pick on Dodge and Detroit? My reference to Dodge was in relation to the 2007 Dodge Demon concept, not a pickup.

 

 

No chrome on the 2015 Fiat.

 

1956 Dodge concept, incredible looking, considering when it was made.

 

Topic: The Fiat 124 is dead   Go to last post
Posted: 18 March 2019 18:55:15(UTC)

Originally Posted by: John Aston Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: saz9961 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: John Aston Go to Quoted Post
In period , the 124 was a cracking car, especially the 'T' model with twin cam. Lada made Fiat licensed copies long after the 124 was obsolete . Ditto the 125...

 

I think you find 125 production was in Poland. Some Lada revisions to the 124 looked superficially similar to the 125. I saw that review of the original 124 the other night, and it looked a bit rubbish, Hardly any Fiats survived, for good reason. The Lada version was made in period, so it wasn't always out of date.

 

Seat, of Ibiza fame, made them almost as long.

 

None of which has much to do with Mazda.

 

Let me repeat - far from being 'a bit rubbish' the 124 was widely lauded and was European car of the year in 1967. Both coupe and spider versions had critical acclaim . Fiat stopped making 124s in 1974 but the Eastern Bloc versions carried on until the early/mid 80s. So far as 125 is concerned, very few cars matched its all disc brakes and twin cam engine when it was launched in 1967 , ended production in 1972 . The Polski Fiat was made until the 90s .  

 

Lets not pretend the ECOTY jury always pick great winners. The Renault 9 won it. Apparently the Fiat was judged to be better than the BMW 1600 and the Jensen FF (a car that predicted the future in drivetrains). Can anyone even remember the 1973 Audi 80? Or the snappily named Simca 1307-1308, aka Talbot Alpine, a car famous for eating camshafts.

 

Very few cars matched the Fiats; corrosion rates. Fix it again Tony.

 

Frankly, very few people remembered the 124 Spyder until Fiat reminded them in 2015. This was the car that Fiat quit calling a Fiat at one point.

Topic: The Fiat 124 is dead   Go to last post
Posted: 18 March 2019 17:42:16(UTC)

Originally Posted by: Countryboy Go to Quoted Post

Unfortunately it's "retro" looks had more in common with Dodge Detroit 1956 than Fiat Turin 1966.

 

Well it was styled by an Austrian schooled by Pininfarina, so you cannot blame America. And the original 124 was styled by an American, from Detroit. So the original 124 was a Detroit design, and the latter pastiche was an Italian copy.

Topic: The Fiat 124 is dead   Go to last post
Posted: 18 March 2019 17:37:43(UTC)

Originally Posted by: John Aston Go to Quoted Post
In period , the 124 was a cracking car, especially the 'T' model with twin cam. Lada made Fiat licensed copies long after the 124 was obsolete . Ditto the 125...

 

I think you find 125 production was in Poland. Some Lada revisions to the 124 looked superficially similar to the 125. I saw that review of the original 124 the other night, and it looked a bit rubbish, Hardly any Fiats survived, for good reason. The Lada version was made in period, so it wasn't always out of date.

 

Seat, of Ibiza fame, made them almost as long.

 

None of which has much to do with Mazda.

Topic: The Fiat 124 is dead   Go to last post
Posted: 18 March 2019 15:33:40(UTC)

Originally Posted by: NickD Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: MasterFrodo Go to Quoted Post

As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think the 124 looks fantastic, and actually better than the mx5 - maybe its the retro look I like. From the reviews, the mx5 is the more exciting car to drive, but the 124 is more forgiving on bumps, and for everyday driving is the better drive. I haven't driven one, so I don't know. 

I think from sales that your beholding eye seems very much in the minority. 

Personally for me, I think the Fiat styling is very clumsy to the point of being amateur. It is not a coherent look.  I suspect the main reason however is the MX-5 is known and actually has pedigree as being a fun sports car. The Fiat however strayed into the grown up Z4 demographic and has not worked out.   

 

And maybe the 124 wasn't the iconic sportscar Fiat thought it was, especially as it shared the same model designator with the 124 Saloon, later to become the Lada Riva.

Topic: The Fiat 124 is dead   Go to last post
Posted: 18 March 2019 10:07:37(UTC)

Originally Posted by: Chris Phillips Go to Quoted Post

OK, so here's a thought, perhaps a bit out of left-field, perhaps not: Imagine if you will, maybe in five years time, the MX-5 NE model looking suspiciously like the Fiat 124 Spider, but with the ND Skyactive engine in it, or then again perhaps a Hybrid propulsion system !  Mazda, having built the 124, on the ND floor-pan, could conceivably retain the tooling etc, and make use of it to help cut the cost of developing the new model.

"Imagine if you will" was the opening line to the Twilight Zone.....

I suspect FCA will retain intellectual property rights to its Dodge Fiat roadster. Given that FCA's effort originally started out as an Alfa Romeo, I have a feeling the outer panels were a relatively minor element of the overall cost of development. Within a few months of declaring that Alfa Romeo will never be foreign made, FCA had knocked up the 124 body. Hybrid technologies were an interim solution, not long term. In 5 years, if there is a NE, it will be all electric. Giving evolving CAFE and other similar regulations, a low volume MX5 will be essential in bringing down the average emissions of Mazda's model range, as it pins its hopes to "Skyactiv". Might even be a loss leader.

 

If Mazda found it essential to have an outside partner to develop the relatively conventional ND MX5 (there's no real ground breaking new technology in it, its USP is the continuance of the gram-strategy), what next for the NE? I suspect that, in overall terms, the MX5 was cheap to develop, compared to, say, the Mazda3, which exists in a much more competitive market (in a sense, the only reason Mazda had to redesign was regulatory requirements, as the MX5 has no competitors). Mazda doesn't have its own hybrid technology; it tried years ago, and the NC was supposed to be a hybrid. In the end, Mazda has gone the easy route and licensed Toyota's now, quite old, technology. The MX5 has always been, to an extent, a parts bin car, because that keeps it affordable. There was always something in the storeroom that Mazda could repurpose, sprinkle some pixie dust on, to fit the Miata mould. With the next generation, what is there going to be; the MX5 was never about showcasing new technologies that then cascade through the Mazda range. Skyactiv was rolled out on the Mazda3 first.

 

Could essentially a Prius drive train really form the basis for a MX5. No, and probably there is not a lot Mazda could do with it within the scope of any Tech Transfer agreement with Toyota. I have a feeling, if Mazda is to bring out a NE, that they will partner up with someone who already has the drivetrain technology, but in a more exotic (lower volume) format (ie. a MX5 provides the volume to return investment on this technology), or someone who has the capital, and might possess a heritage brand, but who has lost the technical capability to be innovative in this field (ie. the MX5's role is flipped, and it provides the halo effect to help the credability of the fallen heritage brand). EV is fast evolving, both technically, and in social acceptance. In 5 years time, the youngest Baby Boomer will be 60 years old, so the marketing focus switches to Generation X'ers; broadly those born between 1965 and 1980. I'll leave it to others to speculate on the fallen heritage brand that has an eye on the sportscar market.

Topic: The Fiat 124 is dead   Go to last post
Posted: 18 March 2019 08:13:56(UTC)
Some more colour on this. It seems that Fiat may be looking to bail out of the 124 when they can.

https://www.topgear.com/...er-may-not-be-long-world

Quote:
Spider sharing a name with a 1960s classic and most of its chassis and interior with the iconic, excellent Mazda MX-5, it could be on its last legs.

In fact, since the latest efficiency regulations came into force, the 1.4-litre turbocharged roadster hasn’t even been on sale in the UK.

TopGear.com asked Fiat’s marketing chief Francois Olivier what the future holds for the likeable 124 Spider, which has only been on the market since 2016. He slightly dodged the question, reporting instead how the current one is selling. Here’s the glass half-full and half-empty verdict…

“I think it’s a niche market,” Olivier explains. “124 does well… it’s the second-best seller in its category in Europe after the MX-5. On the one hand, that’s really good. It’s more than the BMW Z4, it looks good on the ranking. On the other hand, it’s not a lot of cars. That’s the paradox of the 124 Spider. This niche is so small now.”

Is it a profitable one, TG probed? “It is profitable, thanks to the fact it’s a joint venture with Mazda. Otherwise it would not be profitable. This is, for sure, not the future of the brand.”

“[Sports cars] are great opportunities that you grab”, he continued. “They add cool factor to the brand, and they fit well with Abarth. But it is not the future. It’s one opportunity that’s good for us, but it’s not what I’d call a pure, absolute Fiat.”

Francois then cantered off on a slightly bizarre monologue about how happy he is that Sting and Shaggy featured the Abarth 124 Spider in a recent music video, referring to Shaggy as “his brother”.

Sorry Shaggy, but not enough people lover-lover the 124 Spider to make it worth Fiat’s while, it seems.


So, no expected successor to the 124; its not fitting with how FCA expects Fiat to develop.
Topic: Eunos: Weight Difference between 1.6 and 1.8 cars   Go to last post
Posted: 17 March 2019 20:07:28(UTC)

Originally Posted by: Martyn777 Go to Quoted Post

Hi all

Curious to know what the official weight difference was between the mk1 1.6 and 1.8?

What causes the difference? Is it more chassis bracing on the newer 1.8 cars? I assume any weight difference is not down to the actual engine itself.

 

Reason for the question: I'd like to go down the turbo route at some point in the future, and so if the 1.6 is lighter, it might make more sense to turbo a 1.6, than a 1.8.....assuming they obtain similar outputs with a turbo??

 

Thanks

1989 Eunos Roadster 1.6 5MT: 940kg

1991 Eunos Roadster 1.6 5MT: 950kg (main difference; rear subframe added)

1993 Eunos Roadster 1.6 5MT: 960kg (main difference; extra reinforcements in door skins. Japan got these ahead of the ROW, which received this upgrade with the 1.8; this difference in part numbers confused Mazda parts counters guys back in 1997, and was probably the origin of the rumour at the time that the Roadster had longer doors than the UK model)

1993 Eunos Roadster 1.8 5MT: 990kg (engine adds about 7kg, rest is cockpit brace, front subframe brace, rear longitudinal subframe braces)

1995 Eunos Roadster Phase 2 1.8 5MT: 990kg, but the new base M-Package was 980kg.

 

Additional considerations:

Eunos Roadster 1.6 models were fitted with a 8.3kg flywheel. UK 1.6 models had a 7.15kg; essentially, European models received a Mazdaspeed part.

Eunos Roadster 1.8 models were fitted with a 8.75kg flywheel (NA8C-1xxxxx and NA8C-2xxxxx).

Phase 1.5 and Phase 2 (NA8C-3xxxxx and NA8C-4xxxxx) were fitted with a 7.9kg flywheel. This flywheel was carried over on 1.8 Mk2s. All 1.6 Mk2s received the Mazdaspeed flywheel.

1.6 models have a 4.300 final drive, mostly, but not all, using a viscous LSD ("sports differential")

1.8 Phase 1 models had 4.100 final drive T1 Torsen LSD (some were open diff, as per UK models)

1.8 Phase 2 models had 4.300 final drive T2 Torsen LSD. Phase 1.5 RS and R-Limited models had 4.300 T1 Torsen, but its not clear if other Phase 1.5 models had this differential. However, the Phase 1.5 model only lasted a few months.

The T1 and T2 Torsens are very similar. "The TypeI is designed to put out more bias on acceleration and the Type II is designed to have subdued acceleration bias and a stronger bias on deacceleration. i.e. The TypeII is more forgiving with trailing throttle."

According to Torsen, the T2 was both cheaper to manufacture, but also significantly stronger than the T1 Torsen. There have been a few reported failures of T1 Torsens in MX5s (Miata) when driven competitively. Zexel Torsen report that T2s were 80% stronger than T1s, whatever that means.

Also of note:

"Both the Torsen I and Torsen II have worm gears and thurst washers (clutches) and rely on axial force on gears to apportion torque. The Torsen II has the added, not insignificant feature, of side load on element gears against the differential housing.

In either case the Torsen used in the Miata has similar Torque Bias Ratio whether it is a Type I or II."

Many Turbo 1.6s have T1 Torsens fitted, because these are more plentiful, but I wonder if the owners forget about the change in the final drive; broadly speaking, going from 4.3 to 4.1 takes a bit off the 0-50 time, and adds a bit to the maximum speed.

Phase 2 models adopted a slightly higher compression engine and 16 bit ECU.

The historic preference for 1.6s arose I suspect because the B6ZE "was set up for a turbo" and, more importantly, all the cheap turbo kits (eg Greddy) were for the 1.6, and 1.8 kits were thin on the ground. Nowadays, I suspect that is less of an issue.

 

Topic: Rainsports worn down very quickly   Go to last post
Posted: 17 March 2019 08:21:33(UTC)
Tyres like Toyo Proxys, Rainsports, I'd only expect 8-10k miles.
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